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syncope ([personal profile] syncope) wrote2012-09-20 06:36 pm

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Where did the idea come from that for someone to get turned into a wolf the alpha had to intend for the bite to turn someone? Was this ever in the show and they Jossed themselves, or was this just a fanon concept?

Because Derek clearly believes he can turn someone against his will. If he thinks he can be mouth raped into turning someone, um, isn't that pretty conclusive evidence that in-universe an alpha doesn't have to mean it to turn someone?

Anyway, that's relevant to my fic writing purposes.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it's fanon so Derek can bite Stiles without turning him.

But I've read so much fucking fic I honestly don't know

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I think so, too.

Which opens up this whole, vast universe where accidental biting leads to non-con lycanthropy. I mean, it's not like this fandom doesn't love dubcon. Does this mean if you want the bite you could just jab your finger into Derek's mouth and get what you're after? How deep does the bite have to be? How many teeth?

Inquisitive minds.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I read some long supposition on this somewhere -- whether it was the saliva, or the teeth, or the teeth injecting the saliva and what does that mean for RIMMING -- and no good, logical, based in science conclusions came out of it.


Scott had a HUGE bite. On his side? I don't actually remember any of the others bites.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:42 pm (UTC)(link)
My "scientific" answer would be that it's saliva in the blood stream with an infection threshold where you have to pass enough of a chemical in the saliva into the blood stream to get it to take. I suspect the amount of the chemical/enzyme that has to enter the blood varies the same way it does with other diseases where your immunity is unique to you.

I feel like Peter doesn't do anything halfway, which would explain how huge Scott's bite is. But when Derek bit Jackson it was also not small. But Derek didn't like Jackson, either, so maybe he was making him pay.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I like that answer, it makes sense and doesn't depend on *magic* I'm sick of hand-waving and using magic as an answer to things.

Your answer also explains somewhat how Lydia is 'immune' while the bite normally kills or turns.
ext_230: a tiny green frog on a very red leaf (Default)

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 02:05 pm (UTC)(link)
this would be my thinking too, yup.
ravurian: (ravurian brit boy)

[personal profile] ravurian 2012-09-21 06:41 am (UTC)(link)
Weren't there rules about consent that Derek was following with his pack? If their consent was important, it suggests that the consequences of non-con turning were impressed upon Derek at some point by his family, which in turn suggests that it's possible. Derek's behaviour seems to indicate a whole canon of unspoken rules that he's trying to follow, stuff that he learned as a kid and so - sort of like religion in that he doesn't always see the point or understand the reasoning - does it anyway (IMO). I'm not sure Derek was all that attentive, tbh, in werewolf church. Maybe he never really paid attention because he was never going to be an Alpha, and now he's all, like, shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Maybe Derek is confused about fanon and canon too in that sense: 'what did they say in class vs what do I think I heard'.

And also re: consent - Peter only turned Scott. And yes, yes, Scott didn't consent, but that wasn't the point under discussion. You'd think a mad Alpha might've been turning people left, right and centre on his rampaging if it happened by accident. Instead, he glamoured a nurse, killed his niece, ripped up a bunch of arseholes associated with Kate, bit Scott because he liked his mum, and died, without accidentally turning anyone.

Peter was possessed of the facts about being an Alpha, say, and Derek only had the rote-religion-wasn't-listening version?

(So, yes - the Alpha's consent to a point, but, you know, instinct is bound to drive them too, and hormones, and possibly dumbness and alcohol. The Gerard situation is hardly indicative, since there are issues there about timing - biting gives him time to act while Gerard is in throws of changing etc).

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not entirely certain about Derek having some kind of turning consent rules of conduct. I mean, did Isaac volunteer? Did any of the three of the ones who took actually have ANY idea what was going on? I really don't think so. He basically said "I can fix this bad thing for you" is what it seems like happened.

I'm completely ready to entertain your idea that the Hale pack had serious morals about turning people and consent that Derek grew up being inculcated with, but that would be fanon, too *laughs* I like the idea as a matter of fact, which would make Peter even WORSE.

Maybe he never really paid attention because he was never going to be an Alpha, and now he's all, like, shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. While fanon, I think this skates pretty close to canon. Peter clearly knows more than Derek, and it's unclear if it's because he's older or if Derek was too busy playing video games and fucking Kate to have clued in.

I'm pretty suspicious of the consent issue because of Gerard and Scott, but I love everything else you have to say.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 11:32 am (UTC)(link)
See, this is why I thought Derek hadn't bit Alison's mother. I thought it was some long-game plot on Gerard's part--I kept expecting a reveal. Cause it doesn't actually make sense for him to have intentionally turned her. It only makes sense if he can unintentionally turn people in the heat of the moment.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
It's pretty clear he accidentally turned Victoria.

It's really easy to get fanon and canon mixed up in this kind of synergistic fandom.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I know Jeff Davis said on his twitter that Derek bit Victoria Argent but didn't mean to, and given she was turning into a werewolf before she killed herself (presumably considering her eyes changed), so 2 checks in the intent not necessary to turning someone. I don't remember them ever saying that on the show either.

[identity profile] 2012-09-20 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Well. He meant to bite her, though, right? He just didn't mean to turn her, surely?

The intent thing always kind of bothered me because it fucks with the "science" of transmission, so I'm pretty pleased with this turn of events, tbh.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
well unless I'm reading this wrong, he didn't actually mean to bite her at all

This was the twitter convo:

@JeffDavis75 Did Derek actually bite Mrs Argent or did one of the Alpha pack do it to cause trouble? I thought it required intent?

Derek did it. But didn't mean to.

BUT even if this is just saying that Derek bit her but didn't mean to turn her, it still fits in with the no intent necessary considering victoria started to turn.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 01:29 am (UTC)(link)
I don't recall anything about intent and I'm halfway through a S1 rewatch - I'll keep my ears peeled for anything to the contrary.

I think in canon intent doesn't matter.

Jeff did say on his twitter that Derek didn't mean to bite Victoria Argent (I guess it was self-defence) and there was no intent to make her a wolf but the bite was deep.

Though what that implies for things going wrong I don't know because Derek bit Jackson with intent and that got FUBAR'd.

So how much of the turn depends on intent by the Alpha, the amount of serum or enzyme transmitted by the bite, the host being able to fight off or be immune to the serum/enzyme (Lydia) and how much emotional & other baggage the host drags along to fuck up the process (Jackson - if we believe Peter's orphan explanation) is anyone's guess!

I also want to know if the site of the bite is relevant in any way? Jackson, Scott, Lydia were all bitten deep in the side, Victoria on the shoulder, when Peter offered Stiles the bite he was going for an arm (same as Gerard). I'm guessing as long as you hit near some big veins/arteries to get the maximum amount of serum in the site doesn't matter.

ETA: I've just finished watching 1x09 and at the end of that Kate and Chris discuss whether a scratch from the claws of a werewolf can turn - Chris seems to think that if they go deep enough they can. So how that impacts I have no idea.

Wonder if the show has an answer or whether they're just winging it as they go along?!
Edited 2012-09-21 01:54 (UTC)
ext_6545: (pretty little thing waiting for the king)

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
Well, wrt Chris and Kate's conversation - I get the feeling that some of what the Argents in particular and hunters in general believe to be true might, in fact, be their own version of fanon. :P

(But really, no, I do think that the show is mostly winging it. They clearly didn't do much in the way of attempting to make the SETTING make a lick of sense, so I doubt they're overly concerned regarding anything else. /snarky Californian.)

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
some of what the Argents in particular and hunters in general believe to be true might, in fact, be their own version of fanon

I am absolutely sure you're correct. I bet there's whole lot interesting misconceptions waiting to be explored! *G*

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the setting is an issue. Made up town is fine, but WHERE is this made up town? Oh, you don't want to tell us because you don't want to mess with consistent weather conditions? I see what you did there.

I agree that they're winging it (how can anyone think otherwise?) and that hunters probably make shit up--and that allows them to fumble the ethics of any given situation however they want. I'm leaning towards actually thinking Chris is a good guy, but that seems more accidental than anything else.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
1. Winging it. This is clear from how the plot bumps along.

2. I'm also in the fanwank pseudoscience camp that turning is determined by how much enzyme gets into the blood stream and how susceptible the host is to the chemical. They even call it natural immunity, right? Or is that also fanon? I guess I need to lay off the fanfic.

I likewise just assume the hunters have all kinds of misconceptions about all supernatural creatures/events. They're not exactly unbiased.

I can't imagine the site is important at all except for as you said to maximize saliva transfer. One would assume you'd want to stay away from doing so much damage that the bite doesn't get a chance to work before the recipient bleeds to death, too.
soul_cake_duck: (fisheyedel - obsessiveicons)

[personal profile] soul_cake_duck 2012-09-21 05:40 am (UTC)(link)
Another vote here that the 'intent' angle is just a fanon thing.

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I believe this might be the majority opinion.
velithya: (hale yes)

[personal profile] velithya 2012-09-21 10:36 am (UTC)(link)
I don't remember anything at all in canon wrt intent. IIRC, an alpha biting someone = turning them. So as alpha if Derek is going to bite someone, he has to be meaning to kill them or turn them.

Someone in the comments is talking about scratches - we have seen one alpha-victim who was all scratched up, the bus driver in S1 who ended up in hospital. Peter scratched the shit out of him and he didn't heal and then died later in hospital, so it seems pretty clear to me that werewolf scratches can't turn someone.
ext_230: a tiny green frog on a very red leaf (Default)

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 02:08 pm (UTC)(link)
And Derek scratched Jackson and gave him nightmares and shit all without actually turning him, before all the bite/Kanima business - didn't he?
velithya: (hale yes)

[personal profile] velithya 2012-09-21 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's its own thing too - wolf nails in the back of the neck seem to pass along memories and emotions, because Derek got Jackson (although Derek wasn't the alpha then) and (S1 alpha) Peter also did it to Scott (although Scott was already a werewolf). That seems to have intent matter though - because I don't think Derek meant to scratch Jackson given he was all out of control and aconite poisoned at the time, and all Jackson got delayed reaction dreams and stuff, whereas when Peter scratched Scott he had an immediate sense-memory reaction to it. That said it could also be that Jackson was human and Scott was a werewolf, or alternately that Derek was only a beta then and Peter was an alpha.

Needs a larger sample size!

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 03:22 pm (UTC)(link)
when Peter put his nails in Kate's neck before ripping her throat out, seems like she got his memories as well
velithya: (hale yes)

[personal profile] velithya 2012-09-21 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
hmm, I don't remember Peter wolf-nailing Kate! Was that when he disarmed her outside the house? When Allison gets inside he's already holding her in the crook of his elbow ready to rip her throat out? Or do you mean that his nails drew blood from the front of her neck?

My interpretation of the scene (obviously I can't speak for the official interpretation!) was just that he was clearly going to rip her throat out, and here she was facing the absolutely unavoidable consequences of her actions, and the only thing she can do, the only think she can do that might salvage anything out of the situation, is to try and make it so that Peter doesn't kill Allison too. I think that's what caused the emotions we see on her rather than anything about Peter's memories. Kate knows she burned however many people alive, she knows and she doesn't care, because she was there and she laughed. I don't think she would have the kind of emotional reaction we saw her have from her getting Peter's memories. But! YMMV :)

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)
No from what I recall, he put his nails on her neck, about to rip her throat out, and as she's falling to the ground after he does that , they literally showed clips of the fire (the hands from the window, peter, etc...) which indicated to me that she was seeing his memories, not that peter was having a flashback. The fact is, seeing Peter's memories or not, I don't think she'd show emotions at all - she's not really sorry, and she still thinks what she did was right.
velithya: (hale yes)

[personal profile] velithya 2012-09-21 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah right, I think I get what you're saying. Thinking about it more, I don't think that was a flashback Peter was having but it also doesn't ring to me like it's Kate getting his memories either. It sort of felt to me like it was the show, contrasting Kate as she dies with what she'd done, and with the final (and main) perpetrator finally dying sort of putting the whole thing to rest. ...And then, of course, Peter turns out to be actually crazycakes and we know how that ends.

I absolutely do agree with you that Kate isn't sorry and she definitely thinks that what she did was right! But she definitely does show emotions in the episode - when Peter has her by the throat she's pale and shaking and her face is wet. She knows she's about to die and there is absolutely nothing she can do to save herself.

[identity profile] 2012-09-22 03:47 am (UTC)(link)
hah, agree to disagree on that first point.

On that second point I read you were saying wrong. I think she's showing emotion because she knows she's going to die and that Allison will see it and she doesn't want Allison to get hurt, and not because she's remorseful, which is what Peter "wanted" (though it wouldn't matter since he wanted her dead, and Kate is not erally sorry).

[identity profile] 2012-09-21 08:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the scratching issue is mostly related to how fucked up Jackson got from it? But he's got a host of other reasons a wolf scratch would mess him up.

I didn't remember about the bus driver.

[identity profile] 2012-09-22 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
i had like half an idea about a pilot AU where stiles gets bit instead of scott and then battles it out with peter and then eventually is more of a rival to derek than anything else BUT this post has reminded me that i do not understand the actual canon for this show ONE FUCKING BIT. i mean you didn't talk me out of writing or anything (i'm busy!) but i don't know if i could write an AU when i don't even get the rules.

[identity profile] 2012-09-22 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Amusingly enough one of the three fics I have going right now is Stiles getting bitten. The premise is different, but the results are similar.

The thing is, it seems like most of the people writing fic for this show don't seem to know the difference between fanon and canon either. Like in a major way. More so than any other fandom I've ever been in.

But the facts of this one manner is that intention has nothing to do with whether biting turns someone or not.

I'm around if you ever want to bounce ideas off of. Just email me, I'll enable you.

[identity profile] 2012-09-23 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
It all comes down to the physical teeth as far as I can tell. Human teeth obviously will cause no problem but it seems like any fanged bite that breaks the skin will do the trick for turning someone

[identity profile] 2012-09-25 11:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I just watched all of season one and 2 this weekend for the first time. I've read very little fic because I tend not to in new fandoms until I'm caught up to cannon. There is no indication on the show that there is intent required behind a bite. In one of the 3 fics I have read I ran across that concept and was startled by it. Didn't even know its a big thing in fic.